Introduction
Mary Louise Defender Wilson is a master of many Native American traditions. She is also a wonderful teacher who has shared Dakotah knowledge and stories with many people. She has a lot to share with us about teaching, learning, and living. Students and teachers from two elementary schools (one in North Dakota and one in New York City) read the material on this site and developed questions to ask Mary Louise. CARTS staff collected their questions and interviewed Mary Louise. Below are the students questions and Mary Louise's responses.

If you are a student or classroom teacher and have a question you'd like to ask Mary Louise that you don't see listed, please post it on our discussion board. If you would like to be involved in future CARTS residency partnerships, please contact us (carts@citylore.org).

Interview Guide
We recommend that, in conjunction with reading the online interview with Mary Louise, students research traditions in their own communities and interview tradition bearers in their own neighborhoods. There are many printed and online resources designed to maximize the learning potential of community-based interviews. Many other similar resources may be found throughout CARTS. To help students get the most out of their interviews, we offer a set of guidelines in the shaded box to the right.

Questions asked of Mary Louise by CARTS visitors:
Questions 1-25 are from 6th graders at PS 11 in Woodside, Queens (New York City). Questions 26-32 are from a fourth-grade class at Sykeston School, Sykeston, North Dakota. New York City students worked on our Guest Artist residency during their computer literacy class. Our North Dakota students worked on the residency with their classroom teacher. Sometimes the interviewer (City Lore education staff member) asked a follow up question of Mary Louise to clarify an answer.

Mary Louise's Responses:

1. What are some of your favorite stories that you have told?
I have many favorite stories but right now it's "The Woman Who Turned Herself to Stone." When she goes into the countryside all the birds and animals she sees are part of the Dakotah people. The Dakotah learned a lot about so many different birds and animals. Their knowledge helps us appreciate us the world around us.

Another story I like is about horses. It comes to mind now because we're experiencing spring and there have been thunder and lightening storms lately. In this story there is a lot told about the Power Lake or Miniwakan. Waken means powerful. The story goes back to a time when all nature's forces and all living creatures on earth were more fierce and destructive—represented by lightening and thunder. Then all the animals bathed in the great lake and became gentler than they were before.

If you're ever around a horse when it rains, you will see sparks come off the horse's ear. This is a reminder of how fierce and they used to be. Now we're going through a lot of warfare and violence, so I find that I am going back to our stories that talk about these things. Like the stone woman story, this one can be looked at as a strictly made up story. But on the other hand, through the story we realize the power of water and energy such as that generated by lightening. Actually the Dakotah came to be through these two forces! (back to questions)

2. What were the titles of the stories you used to tell?
There are many, many stories that we told and they were teaching tools—mostly my grandmother's lessons. There were no schools when my father's mother was born in 1845, so stories were used like classroom lessons [so there aren't titles, per se].

You know, I always used to marvel at my grandfather and how he knew so much. I think that the reason he understood so many things in such complex ways was because the stories he heard taught him to think deeply about things. From my Hidatsa side, there is a story about a boy who did things without thinking. He lived with his grandmother and she would warn him of the dangers of his ways. Perhaps that is how we do things today. Very learned people move into important positions and don't always think deeply before acting. (back to questions)

3. Do you like telling stories?
Yes I do but I am always concerned that in my way of telling the message of the telling may not be communicated clearly. It's the message that is important. Whether or not the stone I keep is a real woman, isn't the message of the story that I want to share.

Sometimes some of the people who listen to the story about "The Woman Who Turned Herself to Stone" will ask if she was really a woman. They focus on this rather than all of the experiences that she had with different life around her. The story is about what human beings learn from other life forms. The story explains why we're supposed to respect the different life forms around us. MF: But you still enjoy telling the stories to audiences? Yes, I still do. What I like most about telling stories is that you can almost sense that people are thinking about what you're telling them. And that they are perhaps developing some kind of new or different way of understanding. (back to questions)

4. How famous are you for your stories?

I guess that's something that I don't really know. I know that one of the CDs that I was a part of, the one called "The Elder's Speak," won a national award called the Native American Music Award for Best Spoken Word. That was two years ago. Whether that makes you famous or not I don't know.

The other is that in March of this year the National Women's History Project selected me to be one of six women who were on their poster to advertise women's history month.

I know that my latest CD, "My Relatives Say," has been played on radio stations throughout the country. I did receive a call from Michigan to do an interview on it, but at the time I was ill and I did not get it done. But I understand the CD will be played again. I forget which area of the country it will be. So I guess all this does contribute to more people knowing that there are these stories. (back to questions)

5. Have you visited other places to tell stories? If so, which ones?

I have been to Washington, DC, Albuquerque, and Portland, Oregon. I've been to Madison, Wisconsin and let's see where else, Oh! New Orleans, Louisiana. (back to questions)

6. Did you enjoy going to the places your grandfather took you?

Yes I did, and of course we still have the property my grandfather and I used to herd sheep in. I was out there about a week ago and walked on the hill where he used to sit while the sheep would be grazing around-with the dogs herding them, of course. All of the area where we lived and where I was born, that was his land. I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy going out there. (back to questions)

7. How does it feel to travel to so many places?
I kind of looked at this question as a way to think about place. I think that whenever one goes to another place, you're very curious about what is it like. Such as when I went to New Orleans I thought about it. I asked myself, "what is this place going to be like?" You hear about it and you really think about it. I guess anticipation is what one would call it.

I felt the same way when I was going to Portland, Oregon. I'd never been there. On my way there, I thought about what it was going to be like; it's always interesting to go to a new place. Sometimes you have these concerns about traveling to places like Washington, D.C. There's always that little worry when you travel to places that you hear about in not a good way. (back to questions)

8. About how many countries have you traveled to? Can you name some?
Actually, other than living in Canada and traveling to Mexico and Bermuda I've always lived in this country. (back to questions)

9. What kind of culture do you like the most?
I guess I like a culture where I can feel at ease and where the food is somewhat plain—not too many things mixed with it. And where the air is fresh and clean. I guess that is all part of the kind of culture I like. (back to questions)

10. Do you enjoy your job?
If you could look at my job as storytelling, yes. Most of the time I do enjoy knowing that I have somewhere to go to tell stories. I think about it before I go and usually I think about the audience that I'm going to be talking to. I ask myself what kind of a story I think would be most beneficial to them. Then I think about making a new dress for the occasion—I make all the clothes I wear. (back to questions)

11. What was the biggest audience you have ever storytelled to?
I suppose that it was maybe around five or six hundred people. (back to questions)

12. Do you have a good time when you tell stories to your friends or family?
Yes, I think when I tell stories to my friends I do have a good time because when you're with your friends you're more relaxed and you pick out stories that they can laugh about. [With my friends] we very often will tell stories about some experience we had that may have been very unusual or very funny.

And of course the best time for me is when I can hear a story in my own language. I like to listen to stories other people tell in their own language. The stories are very different then because our language has preposition-type words that are so very different from English. The other week I had this experience—there was a man who came and joined us at dinner and he told some stories in Lakota about his family that were very funny. Because he told these stories, I could tell stories like that too. Our languages are very similar but some of the words are said differently, like they don't use a 'd' in their language at all, just like we don't use an 'l' in our language. (back to questions)

13. What does storytelling mean to you?
Storytelling means giving a message about a way to live. And it also tells about the aspirations of a people. What did the people think about themselves? What were there goals in terms of civilization? I think that's what our old stories tell. Our newer stories about events of today sometime tell how we are and sometimes that's not too good. But the old stories, I think, tell about what man's aspirations were for themselves. They thought about what the future should be like for the world. (back to questions)

14. Did you want to be a storyteller since you were little or did you have another dream? If you had another dream, how did it change?

I don't think that I thought about being a storyteller. I always had a dream of wanting to do different things. I guess one of the main things I wanted to do was to be helpful. For all my work I never went to college, I just finished the 12th grade. But I've been very fortunate in having employment where I could help people who were having a difficult time.

As far as storytelling, I heard the stories when I was little and it was always a wonderful experience to hear our old people tell them. But when I was a teenager, you weren't with it or "in" if you did Dakotah/Sioux things so stories and those things were sort of set aside. But all those years my mother and her friends spoke in our language and told stories. Then, one day they were all gone—all the people I was close to who told these stories. But the stories stayed present in my life. Sometimes, at the different places I worked, I would sometimes meet a Dakotah-Sioux person and they would tell a story. Then I'd always share with them too.

Then when I got married I went down to the Navajo Reservation and learned how important stories were to me and to a culture. You see, stories are a very important part of Navajo culture. The Navajo people have many ceremonies, one of these is a nine-day ceremony that my husband used to be part of. He was part of a team that put on paraphernalia and then became like the people from the creation times. Throughout this night time ceremony, they would sit in the hogan (which is what they call the Navajo dwelling) and chant these creation legends.

I didn't know the Navajo language, but I would listen to those stories and then come back and see if anyone translated it into English so I could understand. I was so impressed with how wonderful it was that those people told their legends like that because from what I gathered there was no one around here (North Dakota) that was doing that. So when I came back to this reservation in '76, I became close to four people who still told stories and still told them in our language. Three of those people are gone now. One of them is still alive, he is my clan grandfather, he's 100 years old, but I don't think that he tells those stories anymore.

Then, in the late 80s, I worked at the community college to teach our language. While I was there, there was this circular that came by asking for people who wanted to portray a historical person. I always remembered my mother talking about her grandmother, that would be my great grandmother, named Good Day. So I wrote some things about Good Day's life. I told the circular about my idea and I was accepted.

So as Good Day I would tell a few stories that my mother said Good Day told her. After that I became very, very involved in stories. Even in the last job I held as Director of Cultural Programs at North Dakota State Hospital, I used stories when I worked with people who were mentally ill. Helping others has always been always my dream—the ability to communicate through stories was part of what made that dream come true. (back to questions)

15. Does it take a long time to think up a story?
You know, the stories that I tell are all based on stories that were told, like this grandmother I talked about. When I was growing up these older people would come to visit with my grandpa and my mother's aunt (in the Dakotah way she was also my grandmother also) and they would all come and tell stories. But what is more difficult is that it's hard for me to remember some of the stories that I want to remember. I don't invent stories; I don't invent the theme of the stories. If I don't remember a part of the story I omit it.

For example, there's one story about this primitive person who was very gross but his stories are filled with knowledge. In this story as he suddenly, through his own doing, looses his eyesight. He becomes very thirsty and wants water. He finds his way to the water by asking each plant who they are. He can tell he's getting close to water because plants grow in a certain pattern as they get closer to water. But I don't remember all the plants. And I don't even remember the order anymore. [MF: Why don't you research the gaps and then fill them in yourself?] Well, see I don't know myself how the plants grow in progression to different bodies of water and I don't even think scientists know that. It's a knowledge they had earlier that was communicated by other stories but now we don't know that anymore. (back to questions)

16. Do you think people enjoy your stories?
I think they do. Sometimes I feel apprehensive going to certain schools—it's a given that certain places have a bad reputation and you worry that they won't be able to listen and I ask myself how I will do it. And, well I had the surprise of my life once. I went to one of the local schools out here where people had said how terrible the children were and do you know that those children were just so wonderful! I was so happy. I can't tell you how happy I was. (back to questions)

17. Is there a story which you can relate to?
I think that it depends. Sometimes some stories have great meaning to me because it's something that I have experienced or something I am thinking about. So I do relate to the different stories, but it is different stories and at different times. (back to questions)

18. Have you ever forgotten a part in the story when you were telling it?
Not really when I was telling the story; I just never knew it to begin with. I mean you know, I don't remember it and so I omit it. I think I can remember forgetting details a few times but not very much. (back to questions)

19. How does it feel to be a storyteller?
For me, I feel very good about being a storyteller. The sad part of it though is that there aren't very many storytellers left anymore among our own people. On this reservation, I don't know-there is one young man who tells stories, but the one I heard wasn't an old story, it was about some events that were going on. That's funny; I'll have to ask him if he knows any old stories because if he does, he would be a very effective storyteller. But there aren't very many storytellers. (back to questions)

20. What type of stories do you tell?
All kinds. On the latest CD I tell stories about the early times of creation of this earth. And on The Elder's Speak CD there's a story of the Great Lake and that also concerns the beginning of one group of Dakotah people, the human beings. I tell those kinds of stories. But some of those stories are part of The Mystery and the entire story is not to be shared with everyone. They can only be shared with other people who know or other people who have a right to know. (back to questions)

21. What type of genre do your stories mostly contain?
Our stories are oral. They're of two categories. One we call ohunkankan. Ohunkankan are stories where animals talk or trees talk and so forth. You know, like the cartoons I suppose children watch today on TV where all these strange creatures are doing all these odd things. There's always some part of it that is based on fact though. Like this primitive being we have called the spider man or unktomi. He was the beginning of us—before we learned to be civilized and had all kinds of gross manners. Well, in those stories he sings for ducks and ducks dance and so forth.

And then we have the other kind of story which are wicooyake. These are more like accounts of people and events. Those are the two types of stories that we have. (back to questions)

22. Did you make up some of your stories or are they all ancient folktales?
They are all historical stories that I heard when I was growing up. They were stories that my mother, grandmothers, or grandfather told me. (back to questions)

23. What is your favorite topic when telling stories?
I don't know that I really have a favorite topic. I think that one I have is stories that relate to compassion. (back to questions)

24. What is it like thinking about ideas?
Rather than thinking about ideas I think I would like to say what is it like trying to remember! Trying to remember a story, now that is very, very interesting. Like there's one story I have trouble remembering—the one about the plants. Then there's another story about this ancient primitive person and how he tries to usurp another person's identity. I always try to remember what the items were that he took from the person. But that's very, very difficult. I still haven't remembered it and I don't know anyone anymore that I could ask because I don't think anyone knows the story.

The other week when I was in a school about 40 miles northeast of here, there was a young woman (not young, but younger than I am) and she was talking about stories and she said, 'I remember when someone would come and tell all these stories but do you think I can remember a complete story? I cannot.' So I was kind of feeling sad that we don't have anyone anymore. In fact right now I don't know of anyone who tells the ancient stories. (back to questions)

25. What inspires you to tell stories?
Again, to try to convey to people that we must be civilized. Civilization means trying to understand ourselves as human beings, what we are born with. The Dakotah believe that all human beings born into this world have certain primitive characteristics and people have to be careful otherwise those will dominate that human being. Many of the stories talk around these ideas, they don't come right out and tell you. But as you hear the stories you think about it. (back to questions)

The following questions, 26-32, are from a fourth-grade class at Sykeston School, Sykeston, North Dakota.

26. Did 9/11 have anything to do with how you tell your stories?
I think that 9/11 and the things that have happened since then have impressed upon me one of the concerns of the Dakotah-Sioux people had about the human being. That is that we have to be careful in our dealings with violence and anger. If we're not, then they will override what we consider to be our civilization. So when I tell stories, I always try to bring that out as much as possible.

When we were growing up the old grandmas would tell the grandpas not to tell stories about war. They didn't want the children to think it was okay to be violent; it is not. You know, there were very few cars in our area when I was growing up. When a car did come, the old grandmas would always be concerned that it was a white person coming. They said, 'oh, they are going to ask us to talk about warfare.' They would tell us 'don't tell anything about warfare, your grandchildren may hear that and may think that it's nice to be warring and fighting.' Now this is the Dakotah people, not the Lakota people and I don't know about any other Siouan people. I know for sure the Lakota people like to talk about warfare.

It's easy to stir up anger and hatred and violence in people. I guess that has concerned me very much about 9/11. I was very concerned about how the media had been handling that. (back to questions)

27. Do you feel that life was more difficult then or now?
It would seem that even when I was growing up, life was better because people knew how to act and knew what was expected of them as civilized human beings. One could live without any worry. Nobody ever locked their doors when I was a child. Children could go about without fear of anybody hurting them. So I do think life, in that way was much more peaceful. There may have been other physical hardships. But those were not difficult. Like, even as a child I would pick chips at night so my mother could start the fires in the morning and I would help haul water and do all of those things. We had to go outdoors to the outhouse but that must've been good for us because we got to breath in a lot of fresh air. So I think that life is more difficult now. Especially from the standpoint of how the human beings treat each other. (back to questions)

28. Please tell more about the gumbo hills.
Gumbo hills are simply all over in North Dakotah, especially in the western part of North Dakota. Gumbo is some kind of heavy shale where hardly anything will grow and these hills are jutting out there. They're just kind of grayish looking. There aren't that many in the eastern part of North Dakota. If you're east of the Missouri river you won't see any gumbo hills. But you can go to Theodore Roosevelt National Park in the Badlands and see many formations. (back to questions)

29. Why did you choose to tell stories and is it sometimes difficult to do so?
I choose to tell our stories because I think the messages in them about how human beings are supposed to live leads to be known today and people need to take notice of it so we can have some degree of civilization in our country. (back to questions)

30. How old is your dog?
I really don't know how old Hokshina is because I found him (his name is Hokshina, which means boy.) I did volunteer work at the radio station and one Saturday I came out and there he was. He was starving—his ribs were all sticking out and his back was all hunched up. He didn't look nice at all, but I felt so sorry for him. That's how I took him. I don't know how old he is. (back to questions)

31. Explain how you know what your dog is saying.
Well sometimes I know what he wants. Like when I'm sleeping and he puts his nose on the edge of the bed, I know that he's saying, 'let me go outdoors!' And he makes all kinds of interesting noises but I really don't know what he's saying. I kind of know when he's hungry; he'll go by and look at his dish and that means 'I need some food.' And if I'm running water outdoors he'll come and stick his nose in it and try to lap up the water; I know he wants water. But other than that I don't know anything else that he is saying. (back to questions)

With regard to the story The World Never Ends, the dog doesn't talk to the old lady, he just rips out the work she's doing on her quilt.

32. Is your native language written today?
Yes the native language is written today. [MF: Is there a place where one could find Dakotah dictionaries or writing?] Some of the older dictionaries are out of print. The ones that I have have been in the family for a long time. There's an old John H. Williams dictionary but that was copyrighted at the end of the century. Then also there's an old Riggs dictionary...I know that Riggs has been reprinted, but I don't know if they're available for sale. (back to questions)

Thank you for your wonderful questions!

Mary Louise Defender Wilson
Photo courtesy of North Dakota Council on the Arts
Photographer: Dennis Gad